It’s just data


Winer ranted.  Pilgrim parodied.  I admired. Winer napalmed.  The results were predictable.



I suppose trackbacking preëmptively is a good habit to get into, because if one manually sends a ping, at least you get to control what gets excerpted.... [more]

Trackback from freeform goodness


Pilgrim was thoughtless.

Posted by Dave Winer at

Mark did capture a point that resonated with me: there is no trunk.  Working together, we can create our own internet.  Or we can pursue infighting and acquiesce to IE's once apparent dominance.  Guess who wins then?

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Interesting points about trackback, brought up by nick and d.w. over on the napalm thread

In comments at Dave Seidel brings up a major point (which also relates to trackback) that I'm uncomfortable with.

"The problem with these discussions (not the one right here, but the larger one that spawned this one) is that it is difficult if not impossible to keep everything in context, since the pieces of the discussion are scattered in many places, and are not necessarily cited."

I believe that there are several benefits to having comments grouped by author.  But the success of comments on blogs shows that threaded discussion also has advantages.

I really like the way Your site works, Sam, except that the trackbacks aren't long enough to post either an entire short comment, or an abstract to a longer blog.

Posted by jt at

FYI, the original problem Dave was having with his CSS template was fixed days ago by Bryan Bell, Dave's favorite designer.

If I had to guess, I would guess that Bryan is the designer Dave was ranting about.  Bryan designed many of the old-school nested-table-based layouts available in Manila and Radio.  The community convinced him to learn CSS about a year ago, and now he's a pro.  (Technique can be taught, but talent is inherent.)

Posted by Mark at

Very possibly so.  Outside possiblity the rant could-a been multi-homed, as I've seen Dave do that on one occasion in the past...  And, perhaps coincidently, I promised Him a "design" of some sort-a "Knowledge Flow Control Valve" 'bout a year ago, and delivered on that (somewhat) just before this same rant.

No matter.  Just glad the problem was fixed...  Yet, perhaps, there are areas of CSS that could stand to be smoothed out, if the masses are gonna take to blogging in the future?  (Dunno, which is why I ask.)  And yes, there can always be tools to hide the underlying problems, at least to an extent.


But I sure DO hope You're wrong, Mark, about talent...  As I'm still hoping to learn in that regard and (mebbe just like to) believe I do on occasion...:-D

Posted by jt at

jt == James J. Toran.

Not that you were hiding it (it's even mentioned once on your weblog, although it took some digging to find it).  I just hate not knowing people's real names.

My real name, of course, is Bill Kearney.

Posted by Mark at

Mark, thanks for digging up the Bryan Bell story, it does seem to explain a lot (and does nothing to change my mind).  And this does go back to the remark I made yesterday about context, that jt pointed to above.  Context matters but it easily lost.  It's bad enough when two or people speak face to face; the web is infinitely worse, unless we're very careful.

Oh yeah: my real name is Sam Ruby.  :-)

Posted by Dave Seidel at

Dave - one can have a shared context or one can have scalability, you can't have both.  This is true both for program to program communications and people to people communications.

What's great about the web is hypertext links.  And Google.  And human resources like Mark Pilgrim and Bryan Bell.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Sam, +1.  I'm not really bemoaning the web, any more than I'm bemoaning any other form of human communication.  I guess my real point is: good communication is hard, no matter what the medium.

Posted by Dave Seidel at

CSS batles

Dave Winer's recent trolling about CSS has caused some controversy. At MediaRights, we've been slowly introducing CSS layouts on all of our redesigned pages and new projects, and it's been much more of a headache than advertised. Yes, table-based... [more]

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Finally a thread I cen get behind. Anyone who knows me can assure you that I'm an... I feel at home....

Excerpt from Archipelago at

"FYI, the original problem Dave was having with his CSS template was fixed days ago by Bryan Bell, Dave's favorite designer."

Yep.  It was a trivial fix.  I sent a similar version to Dave Winer, myself.

In fact, the "problem" with IE, as it turns out, never existed.  This point somehow got lost. 

Microsoft, IE, the W3C, "buggy" non-IE browsers, who's-the-bigger-asshole -- these things were phantasms obscuring the actual problem.  Remember the part where his News Day headlines had too much bottom margin?

I'd still like Dave Winer to acknowledge that a fix exists, and that in this case at least, the CSS looks fine.  But, if it appears in the code after their current bugfixing powwow, I'll be happy.

Posted by Dan at

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