It’s just data

Matrix reloaded

Mark Pilgrim: Instead only try to realize the truth. There is no trunk. Then you'll see that it is not the trunk that locks, it is only yourself.

So what do you think Sam and Mark -- I should just let my site look like crap to make some point about something that I don't care about?

Mark -- what an asshole you are. You can be so smart, and so much fun to work with, but a large part of the time you're just snotty and prickly.

Posted by Dave Winer at

Trunk / Spoon (lack thereof)

The pot calling the kettle ...

Pingback from Simon Fell > Its just code > Trunk / Spoon (lack thereof)


Dave, your site is not complex (nor do I it's good looking). I could convert it to CSS in about 30 minutes.

There's a ton of great looking sites out there that use CSS, and not just blogs. The more important thing is that they also look good on portable or non-traditional devices, treat disabled users with first class content, and obey the spirit of the standards. Countless articles have been written, on Mark's site and other places, that discuss the importance of standards like HTML Strict and CSS. READ THEM.

Mark does a lot for this community. You, on the other hand, give us shitty software, conversational "standards" with more holes than swiss cheese, ill-formed opinions, self-important aggrandizing, and a giant chip on your shoulder against anything or anybody that doesn't jive with your world view.

How dare you say anything bad about Mark.

Posted by Brad Wilson (The .NET Guy) at

Hey Brad, CSS is full of bugs. Yet I'm giving my users all CSS themes. Certain parts of the themes are so ugly and buggy as to be unusable, so we're downgrading, selectively, going back to the basics for part of the themes because there's no time to fuss with all this bullshit. I am not trying to convert Scripting News. Can you read? Try reading the back issues. How dare I say anything bad about Mark? Is that a joke? What are you going to do -- kick my ass? I'm tired of all the candy-asses around here. Mark can dish it out he should be able to take it too.

Posted by Dave Winer at

Simon, you're an asshole too.

Posted by Dave Winer at

Immature mudslinging

<p>I thought Mark Pilgrim did a funny parody on something Dave Winer wrote yesterday, with some... [more]

Trackback from All Things Distributed



CSS is not 'full of bugs'.  It's a spec on how to apply style to markup - no bugs there.  Browsers, on the other hand, do have css bugs, and don't support CSS as fully as we'd all like.

The example you cited (the Harvard site) was so simple an application of CSS+markup that failure to successfully achieve what you wanted can only be seen as a lack of understanding about how CSS works.

As Brad said, there are explanations of how and why css + good markup are good for everyone, and these articles are all over the place.  Please don't confuse your unwillingness to learn about the technology as a shortcoming of the technology itself.

Posted by Matt at

Feeling kinda prickly today Dave ?

Posted by Simon Fell at

More WinerStuff

I&#8217;m not looking for things to be annoyed at Dave Winer about, honest.  They just keep appearing.

<p>Dave wrote a whine about CSS (which includes the rather odd implicit breakdown of all browsers as either... [more]

Trackback from Mt. Molelog at

He, this mudslinging is fun. Give me a pint of stout and I feel right at home :-)

But to get on topic: of course, CSS implementations have bugs. Of course, sometimes it's just easier to go back to table based layouts with typical stuff. But there is really no reason to be that much pissed about CSS as Dave seems to be - it's a technology in it's startings, so give it some time to evolve. Basic stuff is so good nowadays that you can dump most layout tags already, the only thing where implementations definitely are lacking is column support. But even that will work, one day.

So if something doesn't work, do what works for you, but do it according to standards - and you won't be bitten too much with later releases (except if you go the XHTML route :-) ). And other people might thank you for providing content that is accessible to them.

Really no need to call other people assholes about technology.

Posted by Georg Bauer at

Me! Me too! I'm an asshole also!


Posted by Kynn at

Winer ataca de nuevo

Dave Winer de Scripting News, uno de los weblogs que más tiempo tiene en funcionamiento, volvió a quejarse contra el...... [more]

Trackback from El Refugio


There are articles all over the place about why tableless valid XHTML 1.1 w/CSS-p or whatever is the way to go. The problem is, most of them are wrong. The best way to get great looking, display bug-free sites is to write almost-valid HTML 4 with tables and CSS text treatment. Your HTML will be bulkier (you are using mod_gzip, right?) and render a touch slower, but it will work in every browser since NS4 pretty damn well.

Browser implementations have pretty much converged with this type of markup... why actively seek out areas where they differ? The conventional answer is "uh, cell phones and palm pilots," but you have to change the structure of interaction for those media, not just the presentation. Blogs are just about the only type of site where you could conceivably reuse the same markup for portable apps. However, sites that get away with this are probably not using HTML very well. Would this very page be usable on a cellphone with a different stylesheet? Doubtful.

Posted by Robert Sayre at

I believe I referred to myself as an asshole earlier this week.

It would be great however to have that validated by someone else.

Sam, Dave, Simon, or Mark, can you call me an asshole so I don't feel left out?

Posted by Don Box at

Whiner is about to blow

I've never bothered to say anything about Dave "I invented blogging" Winer before, but this is just outrageous. Mark Pilgrim made a very good post about standards, relating CSS and RSS standards, and Dave has gone so far as to... [more]

Trackback from Jeff Szymona


Don, XML sucks, you're an asshole!

Posted by Simon Fell at

We're all assholes!  All software sucks! And the internet sucks too!

I think I'll go lie down now.

Posted by Dave Seidel at

Wow... I'm with family today and missed all the fun.

All I will say is that when one finds themselves painted into the corner, it makes no sense to blame the walls.

Posted by Sam Ruby at

Don you are definitely an asshole. I knew that the first moment I set eyes on you. Sorry I didn't say it sooner.

Posted by Dave Winer at

Kynn, you are an asshole. Definitely.

Posted by Dave Winer at

And look at all the self-righteous idiots making proclamations here about this and that, as if anyone who mattered was paying attention. What pathetic mindless idiots you all are. Don't you get it. The Internet won't make you rich, or famous, or happy. CSS isn't a cause. You can't beat Microsoft. It doesn't matter. If you want someone to blame, blame your mommy for giving birth to you. Life sucks doesn't it.

Posted by Dave Winer at

Since Sam's site appears to be the designated flamepool for this particular thread, I'd like all you mindless idiots to take a look at the site in question.

There. Do you feel even more stupid than usual? The site is CSS-based. Time to brush up on your link-clicking skills?

Posted by Dave Winer at

A Harvard Scholar &amp; Name Calling

The was something that bothered me when I

the rowdy comments at
Sam Ruby's log... [more]

Trackback from All Things Distributed


Uhhhhhhhhh..........  Don, I'm not Sam, Dave, Simon, or Mark, (and You don't know me from AKMA), but if You need Your assholeness validated by someBody else.. well what does THAT say in and of itself...;-D

Now.. I'm trying to decide which camp I wanna belong to... 

..The assholes or the mindless idiots.

Don't wanna spread m'self TOO thin, Ya know.  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... ...  Dag, hafta sleep on this-un.

BOTH SIDES should quake with fear, 'cause I don't do things half-assed (not that I'm committing yet).  Hate-ta say but some-a You are jes plain AMATUEURS at being assholes, and when it comes to mindless, You ain't even got a half-way decent start.  You gotta be mindful, before You can REALLY be mindless, Ya know.

Getting down off my pretend-SOAP-Box...;-D  This isn't about technology much a-TALL, but almost certainly about personal and professional jealousy...  What I'd like-ta know is how Women ever built up the mythology that Females are superior at emotional emasculation, in the first place.


Posted by jt at

Werner, I briefly called myself attending Cornell (lawd ha' MUHcee) about 35 years ago.  I went for a year-and-a-quarter but, unfortunately, Cornell was on the semester basis, at least at that time.

Fellow student told me that Harvard was much, MUCH tougher to get inta, but once You got in it was a cakewalk.  (Course Cornell was His second choice and He'd be declined at Harvard.. so...;-)  Recall seeing an article that new Prez of Harvard expressed similar concerns, in the past 6? months.  So, perhaps, the more things change the more they stay the same.

There seems to be a meme going around, especially in the past couple decades or centuries, that if You're REAL good then You can get away with things the rest-a-us mere mortals can't get away with.  I don't think that's a Harvard thing (though perhaps they have the science honed down a li'l better than most...;-)...

Posted by jt at

look, I'm also Dave Winer

Posted by Dave Winer at

Keeping digging

Winer, once again, proves what a real jerk he is. Sam Ruby and others keep hoping Dave will somehow wise...... [more]

Trackback from Bill Kearney


I'm slow on the uptake-a that-un, Dave... ?  FAIK, (fer as I know), You THE-one-and-ONLY Dave Winer (of Harvard)...??

Also, I used-ta be good at math (actually VERY good)...  Noticed that it was ACTUALLY 30 years ago.  (Must-a slipped a decimal point, or fergot-ta carry the one...;-)

Posted by jt at

Hey Bill, if we're all assholes, you're something else entirely. Maybe a war criminal. ;->

Posted by Dave Winer at

Having read Bill Kearney's trackback, I feel for both-a Youse.

AnyBody that puts theirSelves out there in any (even-semi-)REAL way is gonna eventually look foolish at times.

Been there, done that.  And been criticized (from what I've seen) a lot harsher than what You guys have.

Anyhoo, can someBody please remind me:

Where is this discussion going and how is this, in any way, improving the technology...??  (I ferget...;-)

Posted by jt at

Well, while I was out having fun and doing Bikram Hot Yoga, this thread has completely gone to hell, so it's probably not worth trying to respond rationally here.  Well, maybe briefly:

Dave, your argument against CSS seems to be that Microsoft has locked up the browser market, so you see no reason to test with competing products.  My site statistics show this to be a misconception; MSIE use is just below 65% of my browser-using visitors, down from ~80% a year ago.  Yes, that's still a majority, but a dwindling one, as other competitors have matured (Opera now supports scripting properly, Mozilla is faster and has broken off into several derivative products targetting various niche segments).

Simply put, Microsoft tried to take over the browser market, and they failed, and they are now actively losing ground.  What are you doing to accelerate this process?  In 2000 you listed your "mission critical software" and said you used MSIE every day.  Back then, MSIE was probably the best choice.  But have you tried alternatives since then?  Have you tried Mozilla or any of its derivatives?  Have you tried Opera, a commercial browser from a small, independent software company?

Posted by Mark at

Thanks for answering my question so promptly, Mark...;-)

And I wholeheartedly agree with the part of Yer blog that Sam quoted.  Nonetheless people, such as m'self, that use IE are not the trunk either.

Posted by jt at

Sheet...  P*ss-poor metaphor.

Should-a said, "not the immediate problem either, that can, should, or will be fixed."...!

Posted by jt at

Mark I have no argument against CSS.

I merely said I was fed up with it.

I'm done arguing. I'm solving problems.

This is like an Adventure game. You guys keep guessing at what I'm saying, yet what I said is in plain text, available in multiple formats, in English, a language which I believe you all read. It's not so difficult. CSS was making my site and my users' sites look bad. What else do you want to know?

About MS failing to take over the browser market, that's an interesting opinion. What evidence do you have of their supposed failure?

Posted by Dave Winer at

Check this out.

I agree with what he said. The charm of HTML is that it is easy.

Posted by Dave Winer at

"look, I'm also Dave Winer"

Yeah, it's in English and I'm still guessing.  If You think I'm a Dave-Winer-wannabee.. well, the joke's on You...!!  (And apparently You overlooked the gentle chiding in my post, Dave.)

If something else, then the joke's on me, and I don't get it.

Either way, I hate to post this if it's gonna take the thread TOO far off it's current direction.

I'd also like-ta know if industry figures confirm the trend Mark's finding (n-sample being, perhaps, skewed).

Posted by jt at

Okay, I went, I saw, I wasn't "conquered"...  I agree with the PRINCIPLE, however.

"most extensibility covers the 2% of features that aren't already present. Adoption of a protocol is almost always focused on the other, concrete, 98% (as an interesting aside, 54% of all statistics are made up on the spot.)"

I agree, especially, with the latter.  Let's go with something closer to an 20/80 ratio, and look at this a little closer.

The 80% comes FROM this 20%.  People are (sometimes vehemently) discussing which aspects of the 20% should be in the 80%, when this is not controlled by anybody (even "MicroSloth").

And I'll go a step further than what this post says.  There is a CONTINUUM, not black-and-white categories, of two market-segments of tool users...  Which goes from (what-I-call) sophisticated programmers to librarians, teachers, journalists and not-all-that sophisticated programmers.  Largely using the same toolset.

And even amongst the "sophisticated" programmers, there are a large number that would puke all over themselves if they ever even LOOKED at a program of a tens of thousands of lines, and a system of hundreds of thousands of lines...  So opinions on "best" differs.

I'm naive, I guess, because I just do NOT see why the market won't be able to decide which forks to pursue.  And I see the meme that there should be one "best" fork as hegemony that ain't never gonna happen anyhoo.

Posted by jt at

Unhappy in teh trunk? We understand yoo!

“This is the way, step inside“ Okay, so Dave Winer ranted, and Mark Pilgrim parodied it, and then Dave Winer, um, exploded, spewing Manila-fragments all over poor Sam Ruby’s weblog. ...

Excerpt from freeform goodness at

Try and follow this!

Comments on MSIE and CSS Mark Pilgrim: Instead only try to realize the truth. There is no trunk. Then you'll... [more]

Trackback from Jim Mangan's Weblog


"freeform goodness" Ya say...?!?

Mark "exploded", or upped the ante depending on POV, in the self-called-"parody".  Yeah, and Dave escalated and... ... ...

Takes TWO to get it escalated to this point, so whaz the point in avoiding chicken-and-egg by pointing fingers at who started it.  Besides, these kinds of personal invective escalate from some prior experience between the two arguing, anyway. 

I believe that was an indirect point in the quote that initiated this thread.  Yet, obviously?, the trunk exists regardless.  At times moreso in One, at times moreso in another One.

Time-ta get some supper...  G'nite.

Posted by jt at

Yeah, my radio stream is both freeform and good -- yewgotaproblemwiththat?  (I didn't ping this weblog, btw, so I'm wondering how my out-of-context diglet [filed locally as "/humor/people"] ended up here...)

Posted by d.w. at

Get over yourselves

This (punch, counterpunch, fallout) is what happens when self-important nerds go to war. It's entertaining like a car wreck. That said, I'm firmly in the "Dave Winer is a pretentious asshole" camp. I mean, anyone who would actually say something... [more]

Trackback from wantingseed


Nothing to see here. move along.
these are not the adults you're looking for.
these are not your peers.
look away!

meanwhile, back at the farm, you folks all talk with remarkably different dialects, and don't seem to understand.comprende.grok each other at all.
mark's sense of humour (see first graphic in article.) is complex and abstract and conceptual; whereas Dave seems to consider himself as representative of the average (and hence obviously most important) human computer user (not something we can all aspire to..). These humans are as likely to get along as giraffes and jellyfish.

on topic for the website:
ooo! so thats how trackback is meant to work. its proof that you created the content your name is attributed to. neat.
(you kids do realize all these so called "dave winer" posts could be a fictitious cabal of pseudonym users ...right?)

Posted by Nick at

"These humans are as likely to get along as giraffes and jellyfish."


Like humans are as compatible as giraffes and jellyfish.


Care to guess again...?!????????????


Posted by jt at

"Wanting seed"...

You pretty well define the "pretentious asshole" camp all by yourSelf.

No need to EVEN bring Dave Winer into the discussion, because Your opinions suffice to define the category.

Posted by jt at


Thaz just GREAT that Your technology is freefrom and good.

Too bad Your expressed opinions don't fall into line.

Oh well.......................

Posted by jt at

Memo to "J.T."

Ease up, you?re going to strain a muscle or something. (follow link for context -- what a concept!)... [more]

Trackback from freeform goodness


Hey, "freeform whatever"...

I'm drunk-as-a-dead-skunk-in-thuh-middle-a-thuh-road...  Folks who actually SAW me at the bar sure enjoyed my company, so......................

Mebbe You're strung a li'l tight, contrary to what You'd like-ta believe Yourself...  You sure appear to be a tight-ass punk, from Your comments so far anyway...  You can PRETEND to be otherwise in writing, 'course........

Easy, 'nuff to do, in writing..........


Posted by jt at

I just skimmed Your blog fer a sec, "so-called-freedom"...

I didn't get a feel for Your qualifications.

Are You employed by Harvard...?!@?

Now.. a PERSON....

....You are equal to any other PERSON on the planet.

But, as a techno-entepreneur.......

I ain't seeing a whole lot.

So You appear to be a two-bit punk with a blog who feels qualified to comment on those who've actually been in the field for decades.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and show how You have the experience of a Dave Winer, or a Bill Kearney or a Mark Pilgrim...........

(I don't have time to read Your entire blog, so just point out a few of Your accomplishments that match those who You are attacking and I'll read up on it...  Be GLAD to find out You actually have something to back up You big words... ... ...  But having a blog don't qualify for much, because there are an estimated 2 Million bloggers who have li'l to no actual technical experience to be criticizing those who do.)

Lemme know.

Posted by jt at

Poor judgement is guiding me right now.

Its after 3AM.  If it were 12 hours ago, I would never post this. But here I am typing, about how geeks argue. Dave winer rants on I used to work reasonably well with designers until CSS came along. Now my writing is supposed...

Excerpt from Objective at


Easier said than done...

"I see writing on the wall..."

Yeah, right.

I been in the computer biz for 25 years, and heard this a time or two too many.

I've heard HUNDREDS of people CLAIM they see the writing on the wall, from Bill Gates to Steve Jobs to Dave Winer.

So what is this writing You see...?!@?

And where most-a the above go back and quote the few times they actually DID see the writing on the wall..

..there are a hundred examples of when they couldn't even p*ss on the wall if their lives depended on it.  They, for some odd reason, don't go back to quote those comments, 'course.

So I'd like to see this in writing, so We can all go back five years from to see how close You ACTUALLY were.. seeing the handwriting on the wall.

(See the cover of the album "Who's Next" to get my initial instincts on Your comments.)

Posted by jt at

What is this, "Whip 'em Out Wednesdays?"  I'll type this very slowly, so the drunk among you can understand...  I posted a quickie throwaway entry, in the HUMOR section of my weblog, which is suddenly somehow an attack (?) on Dave Winer and/or Mark Pilgrim, two fellows who I am sure are hardworking, capable, HUMAN fellows who work hard, hug their pets, have swell weblogs,  and have better things to do than to follow a bunch of rantings in the lower reaches of the comments page on this weblog.  I'm now supposed to show you my pen... er, qualifications?  Once again, in Alcoholish, MY weeblogg is kalled Feefoam Goodneth bekuz thatz the kname ov the radeeo stayshun it goes along with.  It has nothing to do with the length (or girth) of my teckno-entrepreneureall skillz.

I'm finished commenting on this page (I'm sure no one else cares to argue with your crazy ass, and I doubt anyone else is reading this.) If you have anything else to say to me, you know where my weblog is.

And one more thing -- kiss my black ass.

Posted by d.w. at

I see you've all met JT. ;->

Posted by Dave Winer at

d.w. are you adam's friend from jamaica?

Posted by Dave Winer at

So, how about that ESPN all-CSS redesign, kids?  or Wired News?  Ugly and buggy, you think?

Posted by Raena at

Dave -- no, I'm about 1500 miles north of Jamaica. :)

Posted by d.w. at


Dave Winer, in a follow up to his recent CSS problems: I used to work reasonably well with designers until CSS came along. Now my writing is supposed to be a soldier in the fight for Web "standards." Help. My work has to look great in MSIE, and I ...

Pingback from Simon Willison: Archive for 20th April 2003


I posted on the points made in this argument (way back at the beginning, on Mark's blog) here:

<a href=""></a>

Posted by James Robertson at

Spring cleaning

I've been reasonably satisfied with Radio for quite a while. In fact, I recently renewed my subscription. I've even been dabbling lately in Radio's development environment. But I've been contemplating a change, for various reasons that fit into two ...

Pingback from Dave Seidel :: Wavicle


Easier said than done...

Think of it more as a goal than a guarantee. 

"I see writing on the wall..."
Yeah, right.

Ok, i chose the wrong analogy here;  how about, "the winds of change are a-blowin?"

I never claimed to know what the writing was, i just see it. It's clear that things are changing.  It's clear that first of all, "the web" is evolving from a tangled mess of html to something... more.  I won't use the "S" word, but theres more interconnected well-formedness out there today than there ever was.  I'll consider it a trend.  I also feel that the browser isn't what it used to be.  just passively displaying HTML isn't good enough.  Integrate search. Integrate bidirectional linking.  Integrate discovery, mining, and dynamism.  Seperate content from service from presentation. Exciting. Operating systems aern't what they used to be.  Productivity isn't what it used to be. TV isn't what it used to be. Mail isn't what it used to be.

maybe, just maybe, some of the people that got us here will be left in the dust.  Winds of change, and all that.  Would it be the first time?

Posted by chris at

Look, it's just like a mailing list or a newsgroup.
Time to rethink the trackbacked/comment-enabled weblog idea...

Posted by Zedzded at

Suggestion for SOAP usage.

The inventors of SOAP, Winer and Box, need to wash their mouths out with it, see what I mean?...

Excerpt from Blogging Roller at

I may reply to both DW's later, or may not have time.  Some-a what I said was uncalled for, but I'd stand by most-a the points.

Chris, I appreciate the clarification.

Here's my problem (and DW#1, don't try-ta kid a kidder...!! You don't know me very well, and You don't know what "my problem" is a-tall, in this case, unless You choose to keep reading this blog-as-comment the rest-a the way):

"maybe, just maybe, some of the people that got us here will be left in the dust.  Winds of change, and all that.  Would it be the first time?"

There's still a WHOLE lotta personally-against-Dave-Winer-attitude in the technical debate.  Some of it's getting just a li'l more subtle, and some not.

There's no "maybe" about the above, and yes change is a constant...  But change is <s>so frequently</b> "one step forward and two steps backwards", that I hope, for the most part, that the experienced hands are not just left in the dust, merely because they do have the experience and they've put themselves so "out there" in doing their thinking-out-loud thing for so long.

Lotta "young turks" out there who aren't in the same league, let alone ball park, with those they are criticizing...  Those that are, are the exception.

At any rate, it's hard-ta separate the technical issues from the personality issues, at times.  And the issue of lock-in is important, but somewhat complex.

Those are the main points I'm gonna harp on, if I have time.

Posted by jt at


Winer ranted.  Pilgrim parodied.  I admired. Winer napalmed.  The results were predictable. Results:  One blog entry's comment thread become useless.  No problem, I can create more.  ;-)  Useful discussion... [more]

Trackback from Sam Ruby



The recent Scheißstürm (is that a real German slang word or am I just fronting? no idea…) illustrates that, for purposes of establishing identity in a long and contentious thread, trackbacks are more useful than comment entries. And...

Excerpt from freeform goodness at

Parody is a form of napalm...  Sure, a smooth-talkin-salesman form-a napalm, but napalm nonetheless.

VERY personal, whereas (from the discussion I've seen so far anyhoo), Dave's rant was not a-tall directed at Mark personally.  (Cbw, 'course.)

Like I said, these two have a history which I (and probably most-a the posters) are not privy to.  So I'm not EXACTLY saying that Mark started all this, because I'm assuming this all is an escalation of previous goings-on.

Personally, I'm a fan of the explicit form-a napalm, a LOT moreso than the subtle variety, ESPECIALLY when presented under the guise of being a technical discussion...  But thaz jes me.

Agree with all the rest-a the points, Sam.

Posted by jt at


Points I was agreeing with were those expressed elsewhere:

Which brings up this point:

Posted by jt at


You know, I think Dave Winer is responsible for a significant majority of the times I've seen asshole in print......

Excerpt from LaughingMeme at

Dave Winer Is An Idiot

As you might have guessed from the title of this post, I started off writing a big tirade about this. After thinking about it a bit, I decided I'd rather say this: I have been lucky enough to meet many of the "big names" in our particular...

Excerpt from CraigBlog at

Ah well.

I'm sort-a chuckling at the memes going around, yet don't see Brian B's first blog as overly-optimistic, nonetheless.

After all the "big names" get done squabbling, (perhaps overly-optimistic, m'self), there's always a few stragglers needing to get their licks in, usually on the side of the majority.

What it is.

Yeah, it's about quality.  (I'll leave off the "duh"...;-)  It's not about how famous a person is.

In a healthy community, however, there's a fair correspondence between the two.

Posted by jt at


"What is this, 'Whip 'em Out Wednesdays?'" and BETTER YET, "I'll type this very slowly, so the drunk among you can understand..." ... ... "Once again, in Alcoholish, MY weeblogg is kalled Feefoam Goodneth"...

I have no pride, and am more-than-willing to kipe a few lines from anybody...!  In fact, to learn from ANYBody and ANYthing that has ANYthing to teach me.  In this case, about writing technique...  These are keepers.


Posted by jt at

Rotten Tomatoes

For those with New Yorker subscriptions, and even for those who don't, you may want to pick up last week's... [more]

Trackback from Plight of the Reluctant


JT, very true, what I said was not about Mark.

I think Mark's a smart guy. I don't think his name or initials are CSS. He doesn't work for Microsoft. He's not a designer. I'm not working with him on anything.

So much has been written about a bit of text that was one paragraph in length and wasn't about any of the people who are mouthing off about it.

Maybe instead of asshole I should have said that Pilgrim is a buttinsky. Look it up.

Posted by Dave Winer at

Dave just because YOU couldn't beat Microsoft doesn't mean they can't be beat.
But you're right about CSS, it's too complicated. Hmm... or maybe it's the relation/connection between HTML and CSS that makes it hard to use (because CSS is not complex in itself, it's just as easy as HTML).

Posted by Sanika at

JT -- no hard feelings.

CSS is really neat.  It has a diabolical learning curve, but once you wade in by doing a project or two, it starts to feel natural, and it provides so much more control and flexibility than the old school table layouts, FONT tags, and spacer GIFs. The real issue is that it's apparently really hard to write a conformant browser rendering engine, so no two handle everything in the spec the same way.  Thankfully, smart folks like Pilgrim, Zeldman, Codebitch, and countless others spend valuable time documenting the differences and providing workarounds and compatibility hacks.

Posted by d.w. at

Big Man, Little Mind

Last week, Dave Winer posted about his hatred of CSS. In reply, both Zeldman and Mark commented that they had had enough of Dave's whining. Then Sam made a comment and Dave exploded.I was waiting for this to happen. First I saw Zeldman's post, then...

Excerpt from at

I'm surrounded by assholes!

Posted by Dark Helmet at

1 .. 2 .. 3 .. 4 .. 5 ....

That's amazing!  That's the same combination I've got on my luggage!

Posted by Scroob at

Dave, I know you don't know me and I don't really care about any of the above issues, whatever works and whatever will be will be, who cares...  But can you please call me an asshole?  I eat lunch with these guys and its the "people dave has called an asshole" club except for me.  I feel really left out.  My ego is wounded that I'm not at least as big of an asshole as some of these assholes :-)

Posted by Andy at

Dave, I feel left out...

This wounded my ego... Everyone gets called an asshole by Dave Winer but me. I don't really understand (and don't really care) what all of the fuss is about but I so want that status symbol... Dave, I know you don't know me and I don't really care...

Excerpt from Hacking Log 3.0: America's Blog at

catching up ...

after returning from three days easter break i tried to catch up on my news aggregator, hey, are you never make a pause ? i think i have to catch up on all the following entries 2morrow night .... (at least i could finish on travel the essential... [more]

Trackback from stuck-on-mobile-e-com ;-)


Seriously, folks, I have not seen a single CSS/XML/table-free site that looks good.  Or innovative.  They.  all.  look.  the.  same.

Someone please provide a list of ten URLS that looks uniquely different than the other.

After all, the "blog look" gets old real fast.

Posted by BM at

Dave, all you're doing is lowering my Winer Number.

Moving on.

Posted by Mark at

BM: for starters.

Posted by Mark at

Winer's incompetence, part N

I'm glad to know that Dave is on a lot of standards committees. It makes me feel safe and comfortable....

Excerpt from overstated oddments at

Apparently, everybody's an asshole

Do they make grapefruit-sized Xanax?... [more]

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Also, (via today's Zeldman)

Posted by Mark at

Is this where the PKI signing of blog-comments begin?

Posted by !Dave Winer at

Antiquated Religion of Font Tags

Dave Winer is (still) an Ass. Examples: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Of course I could go on. In February 14th of 2002, Dave was still bitching about CSS. I'll still bet he will support the horrible Netscape 4 in...... [more]

Trackback from the weblog at


Also, I really like the feel of which is one of the W3C Remix content winners

That's 3, would you like me to continue?

Look, 99% of all designs are crap.  CSS don't enter into it.  I've been doing this for years, and I will never be more than mediocre, no matter how many specs I read or how much source I view.

Posted by Mark at

whether CSS or not does not validate under any W3C standard, nor has it in years.
Andreas - winernumber 1/2

Posted by Andreas at

Funny w(h)ining

Probably not as funny for some of the guys involved but this is just hilarious! Very very sad at the same time... but hilarious. A few choice pieces; All I......

Excerpt from i never knew at

Oh, how i envy you guys must feel great. There is nothing more fun than calling eachother assholes and really meaning it... It is really freeing. You all should do this more often..

Posted by Chiara at

Winer Whining Weblogs

Dave, nobody wants your site to look like crap. Calling Mark Pilgrim an asshole makes Sam's page look like crap, though.... [more]

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Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Bloggers


Excerpt from 0xDECAFBAD at

What's your Winer Number

That's definitely a way to make famous people more popular. Guess we'd going to have 2 more acronyms in blog community, where WN stand for Winer Number, and EWN stand for Extended Winer Number. Check it out at Mark's post....... [more]

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What's your Winer Number

That's definitely a way to make famous people more popular. Guess we'd going to have 2 more acronyms in blog community, where WN stand for Winer Number, and EWN stand for Extended Winer Number. Check it out at Mark's post....... [more]

Trackback from yowkee essential


i blow goats!

Posted by Dave Winer at

Hello Everybody!

  My name is Dave Winer and I am really just a big kid throwing a tantrum!...

Excerpt from Home is where the heart is. apparently. at

Quote of the day

Here is the quote for the day :-) Oh, how i envy you guys must feel great. There is nothing more fun than calling eachother assholes and really meaning it... It is really freeing. You all should do this more often.. ...

Excerpt from Hacking Log 3.0: America's Blog at

Pot? Kettle. Kettle? Pot.

I recently made some changes to my blogroll, removing some blogs I decided I didn't want to promote on Teal...... [more]

Trackback from Teal Sunglasses


Funniest blog thread ever?

Sam Ruby: Matrix reloaded The funniest thing I've read, in the longest time. Assholes.... [more]

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There is no trunk.

Winer dishes out some of his trademark douchebaggery. Hey, Dave! Can I be an asshole, too?...

Excerpt from DanSays :: Bookmarks at

The thing is that Dave Winer is Gay!!!

Posted by peterfunk at

Rant rant rant, 1st post sez it a11. T1me 4 nu kb.

Posted by Dave Winer at

I'm pissed because I SOLVED THE STUPID PROBLEM for Dave and I didn't get called anything.

dhale pobox com

Posted by Dan at

Dan, I had already solved the stupid problem. As they said in Cool Hand Luke, what we have here is a failure to COMM-MU-NI-CATE.

Also a lot of poopy little wiener boys up past their bedtime. ;->

Posted by Dave Winer at

Dive into controversy

On July 11, 1804, Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton walked to a field near the Hudson River and shot each...... [more]

Trackback from Minimal Verbosity


Spring cleaning

I've been reasonably satisfied with Radio for quite a while. In fact, I recently renewed my subscription. I've even been dabbling lately in Radio's development environment. But I've been contemplating a change, for various reasons that fit into two...

Excerpt from Dave Seidel :: Wavicle at

Had Radio. Dropped it. Had all the usual issues - lack of support. Simple things would mysteriously break.

Who needs a big black box to complicate life more?

And frankly, I vote with my wallet, or my time, and use technology that I either like very much, or is written by / supported by people I trust and/or respect.

Trust and respect are earned -- i.e. when you dig below the surface of a person, if the view there is much the same as what you saw on top, then that's a good sign.

Its not a good sign when what is found is a veritable volcano of ego-driven venom and general disdain for other people and their views.

The last statement about sums up my appraisal of Dave Winer.

Posted by Mike at

jwz In Print

Seems as though CSS detractor jwz is at it again. This time his main complaint is with printer stylesheets. I wonder what would happen if you put jwz and Dave Winer in a room together. Would they get along? Or would they kill each other?...

Excerpt from FeralBlog at

jwz In Print

Seems as though CSS detractor jwz is at it again (at least he was listening to good music while writing his missive). This time his main complaint is with printer stylesheets. I wonder what would happen if you put jwz...... [more]

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Ask not whether Dave Winer created RSS

While I was out of town, I missed a huge scrum involving most of the tech webloggers I read regularly. I'm still trying to figure it out, but it has something to do with CSS, locking people in trunks and Mark Pilgrim's bold attempt to determine ...

Pingback from Workbench: Friday, May 02, 2003


Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:26:23 PST

Okay, I finally bit the bullet and tried Luke Hutteman's SharpReader.  Very cool.  (For an RSS aggregator, that is...)  It does preserve the "look" of posts; I was pleasantly surprised to find that with no changes Critical Section...

Excerpt from Critical Section at

April 20, 2003 09:26 PM

Speaking of the alphabet soup, Sam Ruby hosted a great pissing contest, featuring Mark Pilgrim, Don Box, Dave Winer, Simon Fell and of course Sam himself.  More heat than light, IMHO, but funny...... [more]

Trackback from Critical Section


¿La muerte de RSS?

Típico. En cuanto empiezo a estudiar con detenimiento RSS 2.0, la tierra se mueve y deja paso a otra cosa... Sam Ruby ha aprovechado el impulso logrado por su wiki para determinar la estructura de un post bien formado para proponer la...

Excerpt from logicola at

'writing to damage'

This reads like a bad sitcom.&nbsp; [via]...... [more]

Trackback from


Ask not whether Dave Winer created RSS

While I was out of town, I missed a huge scrum involving most of the tech webloggers I read regularly.... [more]

Trackback from Workbench


love to have fun in music.

Posted by keithgill at

Sam Ruby: Matrix reloaded


Excerpt from at

Dave Winer hates CSS... again

Item #2 of the Tinfinger Challenge looks like a lock, meaning I won’t be appearing with orange paint over my head any time soon. After yesterday’s stinging parody by Shelley, Ralph of There Is No Cat delivers the most accurate criticism yet of Dave...

Excerpt from Tinfinger at

[from] Sam Ruby: Matrix reloaded

“Seriously, folks, I have not seen a single CSS/XML/table-free site that looks good. Or innovative. They. all. look. the. same. Someone please provide a list of ten URLS that looks uniquely different than the other.”...

Excerpt from Delicious/network/ohskylab at

awesome post so thanks for sharing this post

Posted by Opera customer support at

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